Madam Speaker, with your permission, I shall reply to Parliamentary Questions B/6 and B/15 together as they relate to the same issue. Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member again for giving me the opportunity of informing the House of recent developments in connection with the very, very disturbing practices resorted to by the last Government to spy on our citizens; everyone. You will be shocked! In view of the importance of this matter, Madam Speaker, I crave your indulgence and that of the House for taking a little bit more time to give a comprehensive reply. Madam Speaker, the protection of the freedom of expression of any person is enshrined in Section 12 of our Constitution. Let me quote Section 12(1) of the Constitution – “Except with his own consent no person shall be hindered in the enjoyment of his freedom of expression, that is to say, freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart ideas and information without interference, and freedom from interference with his correspondence”. It is, therefore, crystal clear, Madam Speaker, that phone tapping constitutes a breach of our fundamental human rights and is particularly an intrusion of the right to privacy. Now, the whole nation was shocked – I am sure some Members of the Opposition too might have been shocked – when it came to know, in October of last year through the “Moustass Leaks”, that private telephone conversations of individuals, key Government

28 officials, political opponents, and even members of the Judiciary, Diplomatic missions, were being listened to by the MSM Government. As soon as I became Prime Minister, I considered that it was an urgent priority to investigate the nature and extent of surveillance, to investigate the techniques and activities employed by the previous regime to spy on its own citizens, and to take swift action to render them inoperable. I tell people; many people are impatient. We have a priority; this is a priority. I had to stop this phone bugging, the listening to people’s conversations. Comme on dit, le chat ne boit pas du lait chaud deux fois ; cela m’est arrivé avant. So, to be absolutely sure that this was being done, I invited international experts – real experts – to carry out a thorough investigation together with senior members of the Police Force and the Commissioner of Police. I have to inform the House that the results of these preliminary investigations have been nothing short of shocking. Their initial conclusions are as follows, and as I said, they are breathtaking to say the least. I have not shared this with most people except the Deputy Prime Minister. The MSM Government, believe it or not, Madam Speaker, did not only do phone tapping of certain high-profile Members of the Opposition or even, as I have said, of its own ministers, even its own allies, including the PMSD.

(Interruptions)

They were listening! What happened to you with the car accident, all these they have listened to; who said who to tell you to do this, not to do that. All this! I can tell you. They even went further, Madam Speaker, and this is what is more shocking even! Even that is shocking! But they conducted mass surveillance! Mass surveillance! They had multiple sites – not one site, multiple sites – where this was being done. What this means, Madam Speaker, is that the last Government put in place systems to monitor and intercept calls and internet traffic in the country. This is what is called mass interception. Let me quote what the experts said – “The system put in place is a highly sophisticated mass-monitoring tool for state surveillance of the people of Mauritius.”

29 In other words, what I am saying, it is not just me, or the Deputy Prime Minister or Members of the Opposition, but everyone, including allies, including Ministers, including members of the Judiciary! This means that every mobile phone conversation – I am putting stress on ‘every’ – every landline call, every post on WhatsApp, Facebook, Signal, Tiktok, every e-mail – of everyone, I am saying, not just us, but everyone – was being monitored by the MSM Government. Do you realise what this means?

(Interruptions)

Shame! Shame!

It is a massive…

(Interruptions)

Shame! Shame!

…massive monitoring.

(Interruptions)

Shame! Shame!

Every piece of digital data communicated by a citizen to every single citizen in this country was diverted – everything you are saying was diverted – to these Government systems for storage and subsequent analysis and exploitation! And exploitation! When Judas came and approached the Leader of the PMSD, it is through this that they knew what was happening. The system had the capacity to intercept and store all communications on the island. All! Not just some selected cases; all! Journalists as well! All this cost a lot of money and, of course, it was the public that was paying. Not them, the public! As our Nation was groaning and was suffering under financial strain on facing – each one had a problem, in every household we know – the cost of living, what were they and their henchmen engaged upon? Spying on all the Mauritians, all of them. All the people you see

30 here who have been on the phone, including you, Madam Speaker. Everyone! Even if you were not in politics, you were being listened to. So far for the cost, we have uncovered payments in connection with these systems. Listen to this carefully. Do you know how much? Over USD 110 million for this system! People are complaining about the cost of living. They are having difficulties to make end meets. Here, the Government, the previous regime spent – so far, I said, it is probably going to be more – USD 110 million on this. A company based in Dubai – I will name it – Pertsol, was being paid to service the system, the equipment. How much do you think? How much could servicing a system cost? I will tell you: USD 7.5 million per year! How is that possible? How can you spend millions of dollars…

La honte! An hon. Member: La honte!

La honte!

What it means is that some of that money went into the pockets of some people. That is what it means because it cannot cost that much. An hon. Member: Bizin bour zot deor ankor! An hon. Member: Mo kwar Melrose mem zot plas!

I am sure all the Members of this House, every Mauritian will feel as I did when I learnt of this, a sense of revulsion and disgust at what the priorities of the previous Government of the MSM and its Leader were. These were the priorities. And now they are jumping, they think they will get elected again. An hon. Member: Reve! Reve!

I should add, Madam Speaker, that when international experts who, as I said, were accompanied by the Mauritius Police Force, sought to establish what information has been gathered, they found that the stations had been wiped clean. And when? We know: as the results of the election were coming in, this is when they were cleaning

31 everything. It shows to me that they thought they would win the elections. I do not know in what tower they were living, but when they realised that they are losing the elections, while people started with their flags, very happy that we have been relieved of these maggots, here they were cleaning their mess. They were wiping clean everything. But let me give a word of warning, because this is being done in other places too. We are aware of what is happening at the State Bank, for example. We are aware of a few other places. Let me give a word of warning, Madam Speaker. The experts, they are real experts. Whatever you clean, they will be able to retrieve the information. They are able to; this is why I know, information that has been cleaned supposedly. We know now, we have them. We will identify those who destroyed evidence. As the Attorney General and other lawyers know, it is a criminal offence and it carries heavy penalties. They think they would wipe out and we would not know. I can assure the House, they will have to bear the consequences of their deeds. They will feel the full force of the law, and we will see whether we have to strengthen the law for these people. I agree, we will have to. In fact, by attempting to destroy evidence, they are worsening their situations. They have been warned. Take your responsibility! If you want to go and destroy evidence, go and destroy if you want! We will get the evidence. I am pretty sure of that now. Madam Speaker, the task of sifting through the squalid rubble and debris left by this mafiosi regime, which was utterly devoid of moral scruples who ignored what the Constitution said, we will continue until the whole truth is known to the nation. As far as for the last part of the question, I can tell the House and the whole nation that I have asked an end to be put to the secret surveillance installed by these undemocratic and perverse groups which had practised a blatant state capture and confiscated our liberty. This was what the election was about – liberty and unity. This should never be allowed to happen again. I can confirm what the experts said, and I quote – “All equipment have been catalogued, shut down and disconnected.” The system is now disabled. Nobody is going to listen to what you say. I can assure you. There will, under this Government, never, never be any restoration of mass interception or mass surveillance. Never! I can tell you! Both of us have been Prime Ministers. I am Prime

32 Minister again; the Deputy Prime Minister has been Prime Minister. I can tell you; I was in the Opposition; I became Prime Minister afterwards. Neither of us ever did these undemocratic deeds. We never spied on the opponents, neither him nor me, and we were not together at the time. As these experts describe it, what was being done – and this is also important – they were using the most sophisticated technological equipment for eavesdropping, but they were also making use of the cameras. We have said, you remember hon. Osman Mohamed said the camera was pointing at his home, and Sir Anerood said, ‘well, close your window’. At Desforges Street, there were four cameras; only one exit, but four cameras. They were using that and they were using the cameras to monitor. In other words, they knew not only what you were saying on the phone, but also your movements. That also was being monitored. A mass-monitoring tool for state surveillance of every citizen in this country. This is what was happening! Madam Speaker, this Government will not be deflected from seeking out the truth and bringing to justice, and making accountable to the law, those who are responsible for such despicable acts. I can tell the House; I will update the House once I get further reports. I am even prepared to lay the report on the Table of this Assembly so that you can see with your eyes what was happening to our country. Thank you.

Hon. Members, time is already up, but in view of the importance of the question, of course, I did not stop the Prime Minister; so, I will also allow one question. Just one!

Just one? If you might allow two, because I have two Parliamentary Questions.

One! Just one!

Well, I will put it all together then. The Prime Minister said on 20 January that he has not received assurances that there might not be other systems in use right now, and therefore, this is very serious. Not only what the Prime Minister has described as un outil de surveillance massif, officiellement installé, but it also appears that the own Prime

33 Minister’s line has been taped and subsequently used. Is the Prime Minister not now of the opinion that perhaps the most important matter regarding privacy, regarding secrets of the Mauritian State, safeguarding the secrets, given that he cannot say if those equipment are still being used, according to his interview on the 20th - my question is: doesn’t the hon. Prime Minister deem it fit to instate a Commission of Inquiry to shed the light on, first of all, who has ordered for this system to be put in place…

(Interruptions)

… secondly, the funds that have been paid, and thirdly, who have kept copies of what? Because from what we understand, the data has been deleted. And we must know!

Question! Question!

Yes, the question is…

Not statement! Not statement!

It appears that the data has not been kept in one place and that many persons, more than one, may still have that data because same has been leaked during the campaign. Therefore, the question is: does he not see it as a matter of urgency to set up a Commission of Inquiry, which has already been set up by the previous Government?

Do not repeat yourself! An hon. Member: Mari long sa!

And to urgently shed all the light on this whole saga which we should not forget has put you in power!

(Interruptions)

We were put in power…

(Interruptions)

Hon. Members, let the hon. Prime Minister speak!

Madam Speaker, we were put in power because people in this country felt in their guts what was happening and they voted for liberty! That is what they

34 voted for: liberty and unity! Because the communal campaign went on as well, but nobody cared. Mauritians are Mauritians! Un peuple admirable comme on dit! But I answered the question that you asked. I have made sure international experts – precisely what I said in January – this is precisely why I got international experts, real experts to look at the whole matter. I have even quoted what they said, that the system has been disbanded. That is why I say it is a preliminary investigation. We cannot say at the moment who has got what or what have they kept. We will know, unless they leave the country for good. We will know. If they are here, we will know. These people, you know, Madam Speaker, are like the scums of the earth. That is what we are dealing with. We ought to rub their face in the gutter where they belong!

Hon. Members, time is up now for PMQT!

(Interruptions)

Please, may I speak? I just want to…

(Interruptions)

Hon. Deputy Prime Minister!

(Interruptions)

An hon. Member: Lot semenn li pou sanz plas la !

Met commission d’enquête la !

May I speak?

(Interruptions)

Otherwise, I will have to shout, which I do not want to do! Under PMQT, PQs B/12 and B/16 have been withdrawn. Now, we proceed with questions addressed to hon. Ministers. Hon. Members, the Table has been advised that PQ B/28 will be replied by the hon. Minister of Social Integration, Social Security and National Solidarity and PQ B/65 will be replied by the hon. Minister of Local Government. I now call on the First Member for La Caverne and Phoenix!

35 SADC – MAURITIUS’ SUSPENSION – FEES NON-PAYMENT